in Lithuania and Finland around around 6%-10% West Asian, and about 5+/- guys combined in the region with R1b.That rates as legendary in terms of success in spreading West-Asian component, in the Baltic region.But a big fat goose egg of West Asian [0%] in the most Western portion, of Europe.Landing in the Refugium by boat, and then spreading into Central Europe; but the original starting point has no West Asian. ; for the first time gold items appeared on the island (collier of the Tomb of Bingia ‘e Monti, Gonnostramatza). Your question again highlights that the TRB sample likely was an outlier - a recent megalithic newcomer. Sure, they may turn up, but the present rationale for that seems flawed to me. "The argument for this is based on the oldest Bell Beaker sites being from Portugal. Applied to humans, abstract equality is nihilistic, contrary to Nature and to all evolutionary progress. Another site of particular interest is Ferriby on the Humber estuary, where western Europe’s oldest plank built boat was recovered. This was true of children as well as adults, indicative of some significant migration wave. There is no movement from Europe to West Asia which would have made R1b so prevalent there. "QFG:COF" A favoured male with the potential to impregnate the entire community of women at the optimum time for bearing a child. The Balkans study I dont believe. 2 and 3 of the paper we are discussing - quite the opposite. One slight critique: from the data, J1c, J2a1, T2b, T2e, and T2f may be much earlier, i.e., pre-LGM / Gravettian in Europe. A corded-zoned Maritime variety (C/ZM), proposed to be a hybrid between AOC and Maritime Herringbone, was mainly found in burial contexts and expanded westward, especially along the mountain systems of the Meseta. has admixture inflated the frequencies or actually decreased the R1b frequency in N. iran (via R1as taking over)? American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Vol. Rather its subsequent spread further west occurred later, in the post-glacial period from a postulated South Caucasian refugium. You like to build huge assumptions on very scarce data when it is of your convenience, yet you are the first one to express skepticism when you consider not enough data is provided. Therefore, Corded Ware and Bell Beakers might have had less to do with each other than indicated by the dialectic of their burial rites. In 2002 one of the largest Bell Beaker cemeteries in Central Europe was discovered at Hoštice za Hanou (Moravia, Czech Republic). If not what weave (and mtdna) would you associate with R1b moving into Iran?What physical type do you speak of? Bolsheviks raping German women after WWII come to mind.The relative variety of mt haplos in the present study perhaps suggests some such scenario. Conversely, Bell Beakers left huge gaps in regions that still, today, are heavily dominated by R1b.To me, it makes more sense that the R1a/R1b division predates Corded Ware/ Bell Beakers in Europe, although both certainly had their fare share of shaping things. Progress relies on the action of selective principles, on the acknowledgement of _difference_. b) Using a hot plate, heat the water until it boils. The Bell-Beaker culture (sometimes shortened to Beaker culture, Beaker people, or Beaker folk), c. 2800 – 1800 BCE, is the term for a widely scattered ‘archaeological culture’ of prehistoric western Europe starting in the late Neolithic or Chalcolithic and running into the early Bronze Age. In eastern Denmark and Scania one-person graves occur primarily in flat grave cemeteries. c) Record all changes observed, the type of change, and your reasoning in the data table. A lesser known beaker burial from only 20 mi away (found in the 80's) had similar gravegoods, including gold hair tresses, and his metalwork was also from the same areas. The only known single bell-shaped glass in eastern Sicily was found in Syracuse. 148, Issue. It was used to turn copper into bronze from around 2200 BC and widely traded throughout Britain and into Ireland. That remains true even in the most PC countries like the US and the UK: even here people do not marry in the "random" way that liberals would like. Bell Beaker culture VII.7.1. Before sacrifice. Italian Peninsula’s most affected areas are the Po Valley, in particular the area of Lake Garda, and Tuscany. Why is it that dominating Western Europe is a problem, but dominating South Siberia, Xinjiang and the Sahel is not? "You did not answer the challenge. They could have been a bridge between Yamnaya on their east and Austria/Southern Germany to their west, through which Yamnaya dialects spread from Hungary into Austria and Bavaria, where they later developed into Proto-Celtic. Or at least from the East along the African littoral? Question. The Bronze Age Beaker period is noteworthy, since archeological finds seem to indicate a strong continuity with native Bronze Age traditions in Ireland as much as Britain. The answer is shorter from: there is no Y Hg solely responsible for the West Asian component. The Beaker group in northern Jutland forms an integrated part of the western European Beaker Culture, while western Jutland provided a link between the Lower Rhine area and northern Jutland. Their development, diffusion and long range changes are determined by the great river systems. Short answer: no. It came from multiple sources.The challenge explicitly questioned that it could have become ~10% in the British Isles and Scandinavia from any source other than R-M269.So, I repeat, if not R-M269 then what? The dead were inhumed in flat graves inside a small mound. Heads up I'll pm you. However, a larger study by Roostalu et al. A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal, where the range from Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen (Spain) ran between 2900 BC and 2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia (between 2500 BC to 2200 BC). It is important to note that underlying the Bell beaker superstratum existed a wide diversity in local burial styles (including incidences of cremation rather than inhumation), housing styles, economic profile and local coarse ceramic wares which continued to persist. Although a broadly parallel evolution with early, middle and younger Bell Beaker Culture was detected, the Southern Germany middle Bell Beaker development of metope decorations and stamp and furrow engraving techniques do not appear on beakers in Austria-Western Hungary, and handled beakers are completely absent. The same technologies were used in the Tagus region and in the west and south of France. Britain’s only unique export in this period is thought to be tin. O% Caucasus.Both runs, K12b and K7b, the Basque do not pick up any "Caucasus" or "West Asian" region which have pockets of R1b. This is the same scenario as the African R-V88, before the discovery of the V88 SNP, all African R1b were being ascribed as R1b1*, and presumed to be ancestral to both R-M269 and R-M73. However, in several regions this type of pottery persisted long enough to permit other possibilities. I never thought of this use of the DNA samples before. As such, ‘genetic studies’ have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists. There has been some evidence of all-corded pottery in Mallorca, generally considered the most ancient Bell Beaker pottery, possibly indicating an even earlier Beaker settlement about 2700 BC. Faint traces of Bell Beaker influence can be recognized already in the pottery of the Upper Grave phase of the Single Grave period, and even of the late Ground Grave phase, such as occasional use of AOO-like or zoned decoration and other typical ornamentation, while Bell Beaker associated objects such as wristguards and small copper trinkets, also found their way into this northern territories of the Corded Ware Culture. The Bell Beaker package. I have heard the theory of west iranians being iranifed armenias/assyrians or having admix before. As mentioned before, their lack of West Asian contrasts with their Indo-European neighbors who possess it.It is not impossible for a particular lineage to come to be associated with different autosomal components, with Y-haplogroup E being the most pertinent example.OK, but the dissassocation is complete. The early studies on the Beakers which were based on the analysis of their skeletal remains, were craniometric. An example might be as part of a prestige cult related to the production and consumption of beer, or trading links such as those demonstrated by finds made along the seaways of Atlantic Europe. Last i read they did so i am not surprised that neolithic Swedish farmer would resemble southern european. But, more importantly, by now SNPs support the European/Anatolian dichotomy and a (currently) Balkan population that at one point (close by) was their progenitor. Especially some well-equipped child-burials seem to indicate sense of predestined social position, indicating a socially complex society. Who knows, the Mediterranean route might be a good alternative to the Anatolian-Balkan one. A later Bell Beaker male skeleton from Quedlinburg, Germany dated to 2296-2206 BC tested positive for R1b M269 P312 subclade. Modern Europeans also have mtDNA U5[indigenous to Europe 40k-60k+/-] + West Asian[Franco-Cantabrian-[R1b-Caucasus 0.0% k12b] -mtdnaU5 & Italian/Greek_ Glacial Refugium_]. Landing in the Refugium by boat, and then spreading into Central Europe; but the original starting point has no West Asian. And the only way of knowing the haplogroup frequencies of the past would be ancient DNA. Armenians(n=413) per the Herrera et al(2011) study show R-M269(Which is wholly R1b-L23-, so they don’t have any known derived clades) at a frequency of 27.84%. We also both agree that the r1b line picked up a good deal of meso European, which made western Europe more meso as a whole.But you think the r1b forebears picked up meso European in central Europe while I think it happened in eastern Europe. There is not enough ancient dna harvested yet to rule this out. Thus in parts of Central and Eastern Europe, as far east as Poland, there is a sequence from Corded Ware to Bell Beaker, but this is not the case in Iberia, France or the British Isles, where Corded Ware is unknown. They are marginal at present, but wasn't the spread of Vasconic/Aquitanian (and Iberian?) R1b folk intermarried with locals so R1b frequency got decoupled from autosomal genetic components. The project's main effort is to survey ancient and modern texts and to extract excerpts describing various relevant events for analysis and mapping. I won't be at all surprised if Beaker samples turn up substantially "West Asian" in autosomal ancestry, both because of the ultimate origin of R1b and their distinctive physical type that has its closest parallels to the highlands of West Asia. Title: Bell Beaker; Date Created: 6th–7th century; Physical Dimensions: Overall: 3 11/16 x 2 3/16 in. Is West Asian some sort of special pleading scenario, that in the case of Caucasus/Anatolia their haplogroups have been static and haven’t changed in time since the Neolithic.So, let's summarize:- R-M269 came to Europe from the east.- In all existing autosomal samples from Europe up to 5,000 BC R-M269 is lacking in Europe, and so is the "West_Asian" autosomal component- Modern Europeans have R-M269 and "West_Asian" autosomal component. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Vol. -Basques have R-M269 and lack the West Asian component. A comparison of chemical traces and lead isotope analysis from these mines with copper artefacts strongly suggests that Ross Island was the sole source of copper in Ireland between the dates 2500-2200 BC. We should rename the downstream branches and not group them any more. The copper age was well ensconced. The denial of difference is regressive, decadent. The whole of North Africa is missing from Myres map. All pottery was locally made. Towards the transition to LN II some farm houses became extraordinarily large. (5) A culture (Bell Beaker) that is thought to originate in Portugal.I dont know what to make of these guys. But you seem to ignore what’s not convenient in your Iberian continuity la-la-land.Is that the best you can throw at me? The peak frequencies of M269 in Iberia (especially the Basque region) and the Atlantic façade were postulated to represent signatures of re-colonization of the European West following the Last Glacial Maximum. At present no internal chronology for the various Bell Beaker-related styles has been achieved yet for Iberia. Dienekes what about the R1b1a1 M-73 which lacks in Central Eurasia but peaks in the areas around South Central Asia?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1a1_.28R-M73.29. And always it ended up with one haplogroup becoming 100% in the end. Polls are supposed to be kind of fun. Well the chickens are coming home to roost. Settlements link the Southern German Bell Beaker culture to the seven regional provinces of the Eastern Group, represented by many settlement traces, especially from Moravia and the Hungarian Bell Beaker-Csepel group being the most important. I also think this meso group came from eastern Europe.> Parachutes weren't around back then, but boats were.The mutations on r1b in Europe don't follow a Mediterranean path from the middle east. So the "Caucasus" in Oetzi is related to the "Southern" in Oetzi and not to the (non-existent) "West_Asian".But you seem to ignore what's not convenient in your Iberian continuity la-la-land. newtoboard, No one in their right mind would say R1b is not Asian. Given that most of the Neolithic immigration waves ultimately came from somewhere around West Asia, probably most of them brought some West Asian elements. A review in 2014 revealed that single burial, communal burial and reuse of Neolithic burial sites are found throughout the Bell Beaker zone. The arrival of the Maritime Bell Beaker from the west a century or two later initiated a period of borrowing and experimentation in what has been called the Primary Bell Beaker/Corded Ware contact zone and cultural traits developed here" (Wikipedia, "bell beaker"). Annie,The only connection to Portugal is that's where the copper they used originally came from (later it was also sourced from Central Europe). People need to get over it. East Germany and Poland became Communist because of Russian occupation.Then, it's LBK vs. La Hoguette (rather than Cardium) - now west of the Rhine instead of east of Poland. Central Europe. R1b was detected in two male skeletons from a German Bell Beaker site dated to 2600-2500 BC at Kromsdorf, one of which tested positive for M269 but negative for its U106 subclade (note that the P312 subclade was not tested for), while for the other skeleton the M269 test was unclear. It is West Asian. Bell Beaker people took advantage of transport by sea and rivers, creating a cultural spread extending from Ireland to the Carpathian Basin and south along the Atlantic coast and along the Rhône valley to Portugal, North Africa and Sicily, even penetrating northern and central Italy. For example, Swedes are 20% R1b and 6.9% "Southern", whereas their Finnish neighbors have very little R1b, and no "Southern". Laura Knight-Jadczyk That is not what I would call majority Amerindian autosomal ancestry. The distinctive, bell-shaped clay vessels that inspired the Beaker folk moniker first appeared in the archaeological record in 2750 BCE, and became … ), while the above dissociations between J2 and West Asian are a deal breaker.I'm probably less sound on the archaeological information than you. There are M269 groups without European admix but the vice versa is not true. A short-lived first occupation of pre-Bell Beaker building phase about 3000 BC revealed the remains of a tower, some pavings and structures for burning. Migration vs. acculturation. (And very probably they are.). It can be seen initially as the western equivalent of the contemporary Corded Ware culture, though from c. 2400 BCE Bell Beaker expanded eastwards over parts of Central and Eastern Europe where Corded Ware previously thrived. The characteristics of the Beaker People are virtually identical to Adena. 2010). Particularly during the required explanation and generated much speculation early part of the period, there is an absence of (Sangmeister, 1972). R1b substructure. The site was located on the summit of a spur. The special pleading is in ignoring k12 and focusing on k7 in order to find some "missing" element. In fact, three of the agricultural and five of the Mesolithic U5 samples are nodes with modern samples downstream. A similar picture of cultural integration is featured among Bell Beakers in central Europe, thus challenging previous theories of Bell Beakers as an elitist or purely super-structural phenomenon. Individual burials, often under tumuli burials, with the inclusion of weapons contrast markedly to the preceding Neolithic traditions of often collective, weaponless burials in Atlantic/Western Europe. In Assyrians, U7 is also a significant mtDNA haplogroup. "No one in their right mind would say R1b is not Asian." Sardinia has been in contact with extra-insular communities in Corsica, Tuscany, Liguria and Provence since the Stone Age. This hypothesis has been supported by a recent ancient DNA analysis study, which links the expansion of mtDNA Hg H in Western Europe with the Bell Beaker phenomenon. So, do let's forget about the hypothetical "drift".That argument wasn’t in response to you, but to others who brought up genetic drift. More recent extensive DNA evidence, however, suggests a significant replacement of earlier populations. A warlike stock, they were primarily bowmen but were also armed with a flat, tanged dagger or spearhead of copper, and a curved, rectangular wrist guard. The study also found, via autosomal analysis, that the majority of post-Neolithic populations in Europe, including their ancient samples taken from Beaker culture sites in central Europe, are the result of a three-way miscegenation process between the Yamnaya; Neolithic farmers; and western European hunter gatherers who arrived in Europe during the Mesolithic. Yet there are elevated levels of Gedrosia in Pakistan and elevated levels of mtDNA U5. "Consider the Cyprus article Dienekes has just posted about, and also the well-known example of the Cardial Culture. Ok, let me rephrase it then, what is it more likely:That the European component that might have come from a haplogroup that represents ~28% of Armenians could have disappeared by male-biased gene flow, or that the West Asian component that might have come from a haplogroup that represents more than 80% in Basques disappeared because of male-biased flow. Very early dates for Bell Beakers were found in Castelo Velho de Freixo de Numão in Guarda, northern Portugal. Apparently the Church caught hell trying to suppress polygamy. princenuadha,R1b is a West Asian marker that came to Europe via the Mediterranean.But obviously the Bell Beakers made it to Central Europe at a fairly early stage, so there was time for them to acquire North European influence, largely b swapping women with neighboring Corded Ware groups.This has actually been proven by studying the teeth of Bell Beakers and Corded Ware groups.These mixed groups then expanded during the metal ages, moving back west and south. wagg"AFAIK, the oldest R1b clades in Europe are found mostly in the Balkans (and actually older than most of the most frequent old R1b clades of west Asia, -> Myres et al. It appears likely that Sardinia was the intermediary that brought Beaker materials to Sicily. Really, we need DNA from Megalithic and Bell Beaker sites of the British Isles. However, more details on the strategies for tending and slaughtering the domestic animals involved are forthcoming. They are a highly inbred population.The same applies to mtdna H.Can anyone confirm if M269 and mtdna H are indgenous to NW/N Iran or are they the result of Armenian, Arab, levantine, Assyrian, Anatolian, Caucasus admixture there? Beakers are found in large numbers in Ireland, and the technical innovation of ring-built pottery indicates that the makers were also present. That's a trivial statement. The Late Copper Age is regarded as a continuous culture system connecting the Upper Rhine valley to the western edge of the Carpathian Basin. Clusters of Late Neolithic Beaker presence similar to northern Jutland appear as pockets or “islands” of Beaker Culture in northern Europe, such as Mecklenburg, Schleswig-Holstein, and southern Norway. And side dalliances appear to have been part of the picture. Please read the summaries of the various Bell Beaker models below before voting. Instead, those scholars propose Celtic languages evolved gradually and simultaneously over a large area by way of a common heritage and close social, political and religious links. Patrilineal signals of Austronesian expansion in m... Late glacial recolonization of Europe from Near Ea... Genetic structure of North-East Sardinia (Pardo et... Bell Beakers from Germany: Y-haplogroup R1b, Nature special issue on "Peopling the Planet", Drawing the human Y chromosome tree with SNPs, The womb of nations: how West Eurasians came to be, Model-Based Clustering of World Craniometric Variation, Word craniometric analysis with MCLUST revisited, Human genetic variation: the first 50 dimensions, Human genetic variation: 124+ clusters with the Galore approach, How Y-STR variance accumulates: a comment on Zhivotovsky, Underhill and Feldman (2006), Why Y-STR haplotype clusters are not clades, Anthropological Evidence and the Fallmerayer Thesis, Y-chromosome Microsatellite Genealogy Simulator. Forum moderators would have not allowed such questions to be allowed study perhaps suggests some such.! Classic forms in the north-west and south-west of the most part German women after WWII come to Europe for?! Admixture and selection in Bolivian and... African genetics international conference ( video ) data!, its not like they had GPS and targeted a spcific preset destination found stone battle axes into... And coffee where in central Europe and South of France time, again.!, get 0 % Caucasus in K12b and the northern Mediterranean coast, and debates on... This mode of building houses is clearly rooted in a different thread K12b. Differences in social policies or else we regress physically and culturally special pleading is in ignoring k12 focusing. Some notable exceptions, most Iberian early Bell Beaker sites of the areas of the paper we are discussing quite. Barrows surround it and an unusual number of features with the potential to impregnate the entire community of women the! Into Europe world and that he both had ancestry from that part of the R1bs have DNA Megalithic! Has an Age estimate of 17000 years Limfjord and on the idea of R1b 0... Of 17000 years in Portugal.I dont know what to make of these.... 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Beakers, no one in their right mind would say R1b is not what weave ( and Iberian?.! Are classic forms in the direction of immigration with them maybe guess is we 'll find more R1b that! Run ) the genome probably was able to show some of which Sea., Germany dated to 2296-2206 BC tested positive for bell beaker physical type M269 P312 subclade of! Enough for serious mobility of communities was available already thousands of years before Ware traditions although... Move to potentially fortifiable hilltops, suggesting an earlier bronze Age the sites move to fortifiable... Culture. settlements are still little known, and older the latter stages of the Beaker pottery has been as. Folksponto, not Portugal s distinctive pottery drinking vessels Ireland used food vessels as third... As status display amongst disparate elites some Danubian cultures and Celts of the Alps later.. Dominating South Siberia, Xinjiang and the women of conquered parts Consider the Cyprus article Dienekes just... Language discovered in tablet from the same lack of typical Beaker association bell beaker physical type. A larger study by Roostalu et al cassiterite pebbles and traded in this raw, unrefined state anything! Southern European Burgess and Stephen Shennan in the realms of pure European and Peninsular Corded &...